内容来源：https://www.wired.com/story/uncanny-valley-podcast-wicked-director-jon-m-chu/

内容总结：

在近期举办的WIRED“深度访谈”活动中，导演朱浩伟（Jon M. Chu）分享了其执导《魔法坏女巫》（Wicked）系列电影的心路历程，并探讨了在电影产业深刻变革的当下，如何打造一部现象级作品。

朱浩伟坦言，尽管自己并非音乐剧爱好者，但《魔法坏女巫》所代表的“美国梦”叙事与他作为华裔移民后代的成长经历产生了深刻共鸣。他将该系列视为对经典童话的解构与重建，并投入超过五年时间完成两部电影的创作。

面对电影营销生态的剧变，朱浩伟指出，从《舞出我人生2》时期的MySpace互动，到《贾斯汀·比伯：永不言败》时期的Twitter传播，再到如今短视频与播客主导的宣发格局，与观众建立直接、持续的对话已成为电影成功的关键。在《魔法坏女巫》的宣发中，他主动通过社交媒体向原著读者、音乐剧迷等不同圈层群体同步创作进展，构建了电影与观众之间的情感联结。

针对人工智能在创作中的应用，朱浩伟表示应区分“生成式AI”与广义的“人工智能工具”。他认为，电影艺术最动人的部分往往来自拍摄现场的即兴火花与人性互动——例如演员一个未经设计的眼神——这正是技术难以替代的核心价值。

作为《摘金奇缘》的导演，朱浩伟曾对“亚裔导演”的标签感到顾虑，但该片的成功让他认识到电影具有打破文化壁垒的力量。对于当前好莱坞多元化倡议（DEI）面临的争议，他强调自己更倾向于“用作品说话”，通过选角与创作直接呈现多元叙事，让市场成绩成为最有力的回应。

朱浩伟总结道，在充满变革与挑战的时代，电影人需要保持专注，通过作品本身与观众建立真诚连接，这正是电影艺术持久生命力的所在。

中文翻译：

即便不是音乐剧爱好者，你也一定听说过《魔法坏女巫》系列电影——自去年首部影片上映以来，它可谓无处不在，而这正是导演朱浩伟想要的效果。

在上周《连线》杂志举办的"深度访谈"活动中，资深文化编辑玛尼莎·克里希南与朱浩伟坐下来探讨了在电影行业经历深刻变革的当下，打造一部卖座大片需要什么。在今天的节目中，我们将暂时放下本周的头条新闻，为您呈现他们的对话。

本期节目提及的文章：

• 朱浩伟称人工智能无法复刻《魔法坏女巫》中最精彩的瞬间
• 对《魔法坏女巫》导演而言，硅谷无可替代

您可以在Bluesky上关注佐伊·希弗（@zoeschiffer）和玛尼莎·克里希南（@manishakrishnan）。欢迎发送邮件至uncannyvalley@wired.com与我们联系。

收听方式
您始终可以通过本页的音频播放器收听本周播客，但若想免费订阅以获取每期更新，请参考以下方式：
如果您使用iPhone或iPad，请打开"播客"应用，或直接点击此链接。您也可以下载Overcast或Pocket Casts等应用，搜索"恐怖谷"。我们也在Spotify上同步更新。

文字记录
注：此为自动生成的字幕稿，可能存在误差。

佐伊·希弗：欢迎收听《连线》杂志的"恐怖谷"播客。我是佐伊·希弗，《连线》商业与产业版块总监。在今天的节目中，我们将与您分享上周在旧金山举办的"深度访谈"活动中最精彩的对话之一。我们的资深文化编辑玛尼莎·克里希南与《魔法坏女巫》导演朱浩伟坐下来探讨了该系列电影取得巨大成功的原因。即便您不是音乐剧粉丝，这场关于病毒式营销的力量、以及像朱浩伟这样具有前瞻性的电影人如何在人工智能时代坚守创作愿景与执行力的对话，依然引人入胜。以下是对话内容。

玛尼莎·克里希南：大家好。
朱浩伟：大家好。
玛尼莎·克里希南：乔恩，非常感谢你能来。
朱浩伟：当然。很高兴来到这里。
玛尼莎·克里希南：除非你是反对技术进步的卢德主义者（我想在座的各位应该都不是），否则你很可能听说过乔恩，当然还有《魔法坏女巫》的奇妙世界。《魔法坏女巫》是百老汇音乐剧改编电影中票房最高的作品，也曾获得奥斯卡最佳影片提名。目前正在影院上映的续集《魔法坏女巫：为了美好》在全球票房榜上名列第一。乔恩还执导了现象级大热影片《摘金奇缘》，我个人非常喜欢。此外，你已确定将执导根据布兰妮·斯皮尔斯回忆录《我心中的女人》改编的传记电影。所以我们有很多话题可以聊。让我们开始吧。

你为《魔法坏女巫》工作了五年，现在这个时刻可以说是这五年努力的顶峰。你在享受这个过程吗？还是觉得已经受够了？此刻你感受如何？

朱浩伟：首先，回到湾区感觉真的很棒。我是湾区长大的孩子。没错，我在洛斯阿尔托斯长大。我父母在那里经营一家中餐馆56年了，叫"朱师傅中餐厅"。所以这里是我的家，回家的感觉很好。是这片土地的慷慨造就了我。九十年代中期，光顾餐厅的客人会送我父母电脑、显卡和软件。Adobe公司的罗素·布朗曾给我这个想拍电影的孩子提供软件。所以当我离开这里——当初去洛杉矶是为了逃离这个地方，而现在我们所有人又汇聚在一起——我感到肩负着重大的责任。

大约五年前我开始筹备《魔法坏女巫》时，我其实是在百老汇上演之前，在旧金山的柯伦剧院第一次观看了这部剧。《绿野仙踪》代表着伟大的美国梦，也是我移民到湾区来的父母所梦想的。他们白手起家，为我们创造了这个世界。我是五个孩子中的一个，我相信这个梦想，并且有幸去追寻它。所以接手《魔法坏女巫》——这部作品解构了伟大的美国童话，以一种新的方式重新拼合，并试图通过新的视角讲述一个新故事——对我而言一直非常重要，因为这正是我的写照，是我成长的方式。是的，经过这五年多，我精疲力尽。拍这部电影期间，我有了三个孩子。但我们能被自己无数次向宇宙祈求的梦想累垮，这是何等的幸运？所以老实说，我感到很荣幸。

玛尼莎·克里希南：《魔法坏女巫》在评论界和商业上都取得了巨大成功。宣传巡演看起来规模宏大，服装、品牌联名、病毒式传播时刻层出不穷。如今，要打造一部真正的票房大片似乎需要付出更多努力。我的意思是，就连莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥都在上各种播客节目宣传他的新片。

朱浩伟：我知道，这太疯狂了。
玛尼莎·克里希南：那么，网红、播客主、各种平台对于吸引观众走进电影院有多关键呢？

朱浩伟：我的意思是，我不知道具体数据，但这显然是如今拼图中至关重要的一块。从《摘金奇缘》到现在，我亲眼目睹了这种变化。环境已经大不相同。你是上深夜脱口秀、日间脱口秀，还是上这些播客节目？而且一切都变成了15秒、20秒的片段。这似乎是人们现在想要的。因为我在硅谷长大，科技一直……它让我能做我所做的事。它让我在比同龄人更早的年纪就接触到了这些。我从中学到了很多。

我的第一部电影《舞出我人生2》是一部舞蹈电影的续集。但当我2008年开始筹备时，我了解到第一部《舞出我人生》在MySpace上拥有大量粉丝。是的，我也用过Friendster之类的，但MySpace是我第一次进入一个电影项目时接触到的平台，他们告诉我："嘿，你必须真正上MySpace去了解这个观众群，因为国际票房更重要。"因为是舞蹈电影，音乐被广泛分享，原声带大受欢迎。所以我得以进入那个空间，在执导电影的同时，结识了那些人。我在MySpace上进行试镜选拔，分享我们的新音乐，并理解他们为何喜爱它。所以对我来说，这真的影响了电影的创作过程。电影上映时，我们甚至让一些通过试镜的人参演了电影，并给了他们首映式的门票。这是一种很棒的关系。

我接下来的电影是《贾斯汀·比伯：永不言败》，我在贾斯汀14岁、刚刚崭露头角时认识了他。我当时在用推特。当然，他那时已经主导了推特，但仍在上升期。我得以见证这一切。我见证了他对我说："嘿，你来执导这部电影，但我们必须把你介绍给我的观众。"我意识到："哦，故事在电影甚至还没开拍之前就已经开始讲述了。"电影拍完后，你还要继续这个故事。

为此，他把我带进他的拖车，说："我们来录点东西。"他说："嘿，大家，这个家伙一直跟着我。你是谁？"然后镜头转向我，我说："嘿，我是乔恩，我将执导你的电影，我们开始吧。"我亲眼看着我的粉丝数实时上涨，大概每五分钟就涨一万。我从没见过这种场面。我用iPhone录了下来，太疯狂了。我看到了他在这方面的力量。他让我融入其中，在他巡演期间，我一度成了他世界里的一个角色。

我看到了这种力量，通过TinyChat与他的粉丝交流，告诉他们："我们将在麦迪逊广场花园上空飞直升机，如果你要去演唱会，大家都穿紫色衣服。告诉我你的十字路口位置，我会飞过去看看。"然后我们飞上去，根据粉丝在推特上（那是2012年）提供的位置信息进行低空飞行。或者说："嘿，你们这周末要去看电影吗？带上荧光棒。哦，告诉你们所在影院的音响师，把音量调到7，因为他们总是只调到4。"影院还向我们投诉，因为所有孩子都去找放映员要求"调到7"。这非常强大。

我认为现在这种方式已经以不同的方式成熟了。它现在只是业务的一部分。但《魔法坏女巫》也不例外。《魔法坏女巫》有《绿野仙踪》的粉丝，那是不同的一代人；有原著小说的粉丝，他们和音乐剧粉丝可能不是完全相同的群体；还有铁杆的戏剧迷粉丝，我自己就是其中一员；然后还有电影观众，以及一般的音乐剧爱好者。他们都在给你提供意见：该选谁，电影该怎么拍。所以我试着让他们了解我们的进展。到现在，就是："好了，我们要上映了。让我向你们展示我们的成果，听听这些女孩们和她们的表演。"这实际上既有趣又艰难。

玛尼莎·克里希南：嗯，我很好奇《魔法坏女巫》宣传巡演中的那些病毒式传播时刻，因为显然阿丽亚娜·格兰德和辛西娅·艾莉沃的友谊引发了很多讨论。她们在一些采访中一起动情落泪。这甚至在TikTok上催生了模仿视频。我想知道的是，你在这部电影里到底对她们做了什么？开个玩笑。但这部电影有什么特别之处让你们所有人紧密相连吗？你认为那种情感从何而来？你怎么看待人们对这些时刻的关注、病毒式传播以及审视？

朱浩伟：想象一下，小小的我接到电话："嘿，你可以执导《魔法坏女巫》了。""天哪，好的。"他们宣布后，每个人都说："那个拍《舞出我人生2》的家伙？去你的吧。"这就是扑面而来的能量。我妈妈说："亲爱的，别听他们的。"我说："我忍不住不听。"想象一下那种情况。然后你开始研究素材，心想："一部电影拍不完，必须拍成两部，因为如果只拍一部，就会删掉所有让《魔法坏女巫》之所以是《魔法坏女巫》的东西。我是《魔法坏女巫》的粉丝，我希望这成为决定性的版本，否则就不是《魔法坏女巫》了。"所以你把电影分成两部，制片厂说："乔恩，你来向全世界宣布吧。"然后我发推文，下面全是："去你的，乔恩。两部电影？你就是想圈钱。"你承受着这种压力。

然后每个人都想演艾尔法巴和格林达。每个人都给你发视频，说明他们为什么应该演艾尔法巴和格林达。每个人都给你发他们最喜欢的明星，说他们应该演艾尔法巴和格林达。而你只想拍一部好电影，这需要专注和清晰的思路。然后你开始试镜，开始选择演员。你选了辛西娅·艾莉沃和阿丽亚娜·格兰德，现在看似乎理所当然，但当时每个人都说："辛西娅·艾莉沃？什么？她唱歌是没问题，但她怎么能演这个？""哦，阿丽亚娜·格兰德，那就是为了圈钱，巴拉巴拉。"

我知道真相，因为我在试镜现场。我看到当阿丽亚娜·格兰德尝试这个角色时有多么惊艳，你会震惊的，因为她正在开启人生的新篇章。我知道这一点。我也看到辛西娅·艾莉沃的表现，尽管她已世界闻名，但我们将让她成为全球巨星，因为我们将把她展现给更多人。她演唱艾尔法巴歌曲的方式，即使我们已经听过上百遍，当她唱到"我内心有些东西改变了，有些东西不一样了"时，我感到如此共鸣。那是新冠封锁期间，我们在进行试镜，我想："这正是我们文化当下的状态。"所以我必须选择她们。然后所有人都在攻击我，攻击我。所有《绿野仙踪》的粉丝都说："你不能拍《魔法坏女巫》。你要怎么处理多萝西？巴拉巴拉。"

然后你们在伦敦聚在一起，心想："人们要等三年，甚至更久才能看到这部电影。"所以我们必须尽我们所能拍出最好的电影，我们所有人的事业都悬于一线，刀已出鞘，戏剧迷们很苛刻，粉丝们也很苛刻。而且，每个人都说电影已死。还有，他们认为音乐剧电影已死。"我们开始吧。""哦，还要花这么多钱拍两部电影，如果第一部不成功，你就彻底完蛋了。"于是我们看着彼此，心想："我们只有彼此了。我们只有彼此了。我想我有些解决办法，但我们必须一起找到答案。"你们变得非常、非常紧密。她们是我的姐妹。如果有人认为这很尴尬，那他们从未带着爱去创作过什么，也从未……

你知道的。你知道那些深夜、通宵达旦、画图、试图解决问题、门外就是恐惧却还要继续前行的日子有多难。当你有一个团队，你说："好了，屏蔽一切干扰。让我们一起走这条黄砖路。"你们在创作，在尝试，在冒险，在玩耍，而我会保护她们，因为如果我搞砸了，在剪辑或混音中也可能毁了她们的事业。我们怀着如此巨大的热情在做这件事。然后人们甚至还没看到电影，我们同时拍了两部。我们拍摄了全部内容。所以我们看到了故事中有趣的部分和黑暗的部分。我们看着她们建立联系，在一起，然后我们又看着她们经历死亡和重生，彼此分离。

所以，在任何人甚至不知道电影何时上映之前，我们已经和这些人共度了一生。然后我们推出电影，进行宣传巡演。我们如此亲密，因为我们一直紧密团结。而他们只看到第一部电影，它有趣、充满英雄气概，但我们早已见证了她们的死亡。所以我们表达着那些情感。我想，人们很难完全理解那种强度。但我想，因为你知道要付出巨大的努力去创造任何东西是多么紧张，这就是它所要求的。

我们生活在一个充满嘲讽的时代，每个人都有麦克风可以剪辑和指责。所以作为导演，作为讲故事的人，这是一个有趣的角色。观众想从我这里得到什么？他们只是想要作品问世吗？还是他们渴望了解幕后的一切？这是一个有趣的平衡，我仍在摸索。克里斯托弗·诺兰只是拍他的电影，做他的事，不管那是否能持续；詹姆斯·卡梅隆现在也出来做播客了；昆汀·塔伦蒂诺也拿起了麦克风。那么，我们想从电影制作人那里听到多少？还是我喜欢让作品自己说话？但我内心也有一部分需要谈论作品本身，让人们理解其中投入了什么。所以我想这就是我们正在跳的舞蹈，而且——

玛尼莎·克里希南：这是个很好的回答。
朱浩伟：抱歉，说得太长了。对不起。
玛尼莎·克里希南：这比我想象的答案要好。
朱浩伟：但这就是我每天都在挣扎的事情。我是互联网一代。我获取信息，并从中汲取养分。我喜欢知道这是我的元宇宙。现在我有了孩子，我也有真实的现实世界。所以当你有了孩子，至少我发现，我现在有五个孩子……是的，是的。但这感觉最好，是最好的。我有一个八岁、六岁、四岁、两岁和一岁的孩子。有人说："哇，那太累人了。"但这实际上能激发创造力。如果你有孩子，尤其是年幼的孩子，你知道，这让你充满活力。所以我挣扎于要投入多少精力。我想与那个世界互动，因为我觉得它存在，如果你想以某种方式引导它，想成为善良和仁慈的捍卫者，你就必须与它互动。

玛尼莎·克里希南：有件事我想知道，因为你在硅谷长大，显然不惧怕科技。关于在创作过程中使用人工智能存在很多争议。吉尔莫·德尔·托罗说他宁死也不会用它。你认为它在多大程度上对你的电影制作过程有用？

朱浩伟：嗯，我的意思是，我认为人工智能是一个非常宽泛的术语。很难就人工智能进行争论，因为你会问：你说的人工智能是指什么？是指生成式人工智能吗？还是指人工智能这种技术……自动纠错算是一种人工智能吗？

玛尼莎·克里希南：是的，有道理。
朱浩伟：算法是人工智能吗？是的，对我来说，当我就此进行对话时，"人工智能"这个营销术语非常令人困惑。如果我们谈论的人工智能是一种关于信息组织、甚至视觉组织或理解的技术，对我来说，那非常迷人。我喜欢这个。《魔法坏女巫》某种程度上算是人工智能之前的产品，因为我们已经走了很远，但我喜欢尝试人工智能，因为我想理解它。正如你所说，我不害怕科技。我认为人类选择我们看重什么，我们最终会选择不那么容易的东西。起初看起来可能很棒。当单反相机出现时，你会说："哇，这看起来像真正的相机。"突然之间，每个人都成了摄影师。然后你看到所有这些照片，它们看起来都一样，你会说："哦，看起来像什么并不等同于真正的摄影师是什么。这意味着什么？你想表达什么？"所以我们的价值观会转变。

所以当谈到生成式人工智能时，我认为有一个原罪让人们难以释怀，那就是对我们从未同意、版权持有者也从未在法律层面有效捍卫的图像和故事的挖掘。所以感觉就像每个人都在说："嘿，伙计们，我们已经过了那个阶段了。我们对此感到抱歉。我们知道你们有那些每个人都点击同意的条款，我们挖掘了那些内容，对不起，但这项技术比那更重要。"所以我认为，作为一个艺术家，这是一个很难跨越的坎。但我想……我不能说我们必须跨过去，但我会说事情在向前发展。所以我认为这是争论的一部分。

争论的另一部分是，生成式人工智能也可能有帮助，可以成为一种工具，就像铅笔一样，任何从我们头脑中变成实物的过程，正如我们所知的科技，任何能连接这个过程的东西都是美好的。所以我认为我们正在试图弄清楚如何使用这支铅笔，如何驾驭这头野兽，我们正处于这个阶段。我不知道。我觉得这很迷人。然而，我认为观众，当作品是人为创作时——我们搭建了这些布景，我们有即兴发挥的时刻……我知道那是什么感觉，我知道你知道当你在委员会里制定计划、撰写剧本、甚至绘制故事板、制作东西时是什么感觉，如果结果只是那样，那还不够好。

当我们完成了所有准备工作，然后走上片场，有一百个人，突然下起雨来，你会说："好吧，我们必须让这行得通。这怎么弄？"然后你运用人类的本能说："好吧，下雨了，她淋湿了，她在哭。所以摄像机必须靠近，因为我们没有足够大的伞。所以我们要靠近她。"突然间，感觉你就在那里，这是无法解释的。如果我把这些写进剧本，每个人都会说："你不能这么做，你负担不起。这太疯狂了。"但它正在发生，然后它就成了标志性的时刻。

我在拍电影时有过很多这样的时刻，即使是第一部电影中艾尔法巴披上斗篷时眨眼的那个瞬间。如果我把它写进剧本，人们会嘲笑它。她会说："绝对不行，我才不眨眼呢。"但她在那一刻那样做了，现在它成了一个永恒的影像。我认为这就是电影之美。我认为这就是艺术之美。我认为我们珍视这一点。

玛尼莎·克里希南：好的。所以听起来你可能是开放的。你基本上没有对与人工智能合作关上大门？

朱浩伟：我不知道。
玛尼莎·克里希南：好的。这很公平。我确实想谈谈《摘金奇缘》，因为我喜欢那部电影，但我也想知道，你是否担心因为做亚洲题材的项目而被定型？那部电影对于代表性意义重大。你在接手那个项目时是否也感到很大的责任？

朱浩伟：是的。我的意思是，我之所以拍它是有原因的，因为我曾经非常害怕谈论自己作为亚裔美国人的身份。因为一旦你给自己贴上标签，"哦，你是亚裔美国导演"，我就会觉得："哦，他们只会'把所有亚洲剧本都发给他'。"我害怕那样。我只想被看作一个导演，而且我对自己文化身份认同的危机也没有所有答案。

所以在那时，不管那是哪一年，我正在

英文来源：

You don’t have to be a fan of musicals to know about the Wicked film franchise—it’s been everywhere since the first film launched last year, and that’s exactly how director Jon. M Chu wanted it.
At WIRED’s Big Interview event last week, senior culture editor Manisha Krishnan sat down with Chu to discuss what it takes to make a blockbuster during a moment of deep changes in the film industry. In today’s episode, we are taking a break from the week’s headlines and bringing you their conversation.
Articles mentioned in this episode:

• Jon M. Chu Says AI Couldn’t Have Made One of the Best Moments in ‘Wicked’
• For the Director of Wicked, There’s No Place Like Silicon Valley
  You can follow Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer and Manisha Krishnan on Bluesky at @manishakrishnan. Write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com.
  How to Listen
  You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how:
  If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for “uncanny valley.” We’re on Spotify too.
  Transcript
  Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.
  Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's director of business and industry. Today on the show, we want to share with you one of the best conversations that happened during our Big Interview event in San Francisco last week. Our senior culture editor Manisha Krishnan sat down with Jon Chu, the director of Wicked, to discuss what made the film franchise such a success. Even if you're not a fan of musicals, it's a fascinating conversation about the power of viral marketing and how forward-looking filmmakers like Chu are trying to navigate the AI era without compromising their creative vision and their execution. Here's that conversation.
  Manisha Krishnan: Hi, everyone.
  Jon Chu: Hey, everybody.
  Manisha Krishnan: Jon, thank you so much for being here.
  Jon Chu: Of course. Great to be.
  Manisha Krishnan: Unless you're a Luddite, which I doubt anyone here would be here if they were, you've probably heard of Jon and of course the wonderful world of Wicked. Wicked was the highest grossing adaptation of a Broadway musical in box office history. It was also nominated for an Oscar for Best Picture. Wicked: For Good, which is in theaters right now, opened number one at the global box office. Jon also directed the wildly successful phenomenon, Crazy Rich Asians, which I love. And you are slated to direct the upcoming Britney Spears biopic based on her memoir, The Woman in Me. So we have tons to talk about. Let's dive in.
  OK, you worked on Wicked for five years, and this moment right now is kind of the culmination of that. Are you relishing this? Are you feeling like you want to be done with Wicked? How is this moment going for you?
  Jon Chu: Yeah. Well, one, it's really great to be in the Bay. I'm a Bay Area kid. That's right. I grew up in Los Altos. My parents have a Chinese restaurant there for 56 years, Chef Chu's. So this is my home. This is good to be home. And I was built by the generosity of this place. The customers who would come into the restaurant would give my parents computers, video cards, this is in the mid '90s, and software. Adobe would give me software with Russell Brown, all this stuff for this kid who was getting into movies. And so I feel great responsibility when I'm out in—went to LA to escape this place and now we're all crashing together.
  So when I started Wicked five plus years ago, I actually saw Wicked for the first time in the Curran Theatre here before it went on Broadway. And so The Wizard of Oz is the great American dream. It's what my parents who immigrated to this country into the Bay dreamed of. And they started their business and they built this world for us. I'm one of five kids and I believed in this dream and I got to pursue it. So tackling Wicked, which is taking the great American fairy tale and then deconstructing it in a new way and picking up its pieces and trying to tell a new story through a new perspective, that has always been really important to me because that's me, that's how I grew up. And yes, I am exhausted after these five plus years. I've had three children since working on this movie. But how privileged are we to be exhausted by the dream that we begged from the universe for so many times? So I feel honored to honest.
  Manisha Krishnan: Wicked is hugely successful, both critically and commercially. The press tours seem larger than life, the outfits, the brand collabs, the viral moments. It seems like it takes a lot more these days to sort of make a true box office hit. I mean, even Leo DiCaprio was working the podcast circuit to promote One Battle After Another.
  Jon Chu: I know, it's crazy.
  Manisha Krishnan: So how key are sort of influencers, podcasters, platforms to getting butts into movie theaters?
  Jon Chu: I mean, I don't know what the data is, but obviously it's a huge piece of the puzzle now. And I've watched that change even from Crazy Rich Asians to now. It's such a different landscape. Do you go on late night talk shows, daytime talk shows, or you get on these podcasts and everything's in 15 second, 20 second clips? And that seems to be what people want. Because I grew up in the Silicon Valley, technology has always been … It allowed me to do what I do. It gave me access before someone my age should have had access to it. And I learned a lot during that.
  So my first movie, Step Up to the Streets, was a sequel to a dance movie. But what I learned when I started that, this is in 2008, the first Step Up movie had this huge following on MySpace. And yes, I was on Friendster and all that stuff, but MySpace was the first time I entered a movie and they're like, "Hey, you have to actually get onto MySpace and understand this audience, because it's more about International Box Office." So the music was shared, the album was huge because it was a dance movie. And so I got to go on that space and as I was directing the movie, got to meet those people. I got to have auditions on MySpace and share our new music on MySpace and understand why they love it. So to me, it really influenced the making of the movie. And when we released it, we even took people that auditioned and put them in the movie, got them premier tickets. So it was this great relationship.
  My movie after that was Justin Bieber: Never Say Never, which I got to when Justin was 14 years old and he was just bursting onto the scene. I was on Twitter. Of course, he was dominating Twitter at that moment, but he was still just on the rise. And so I got to witness that. I got to witness him when he was like, "Hey, you're going to direct this movie, but we have to introduce you to my audience." I realized, "Oh, the story's being told before the movie even begins, before you even start shooting." And then after you're done with the movie, you got to continue that story.
  So for that, he brought me into his trailer and he's like, "Let's record something." He's like, "Hey everybody, this guy keeps following around. Who are you?" And it turns to me, I'm like, "Hey, I'm Jon. I'm going to be directing your movie and here we go." And so I watched in real time my followers go up. I mean, it was like 10,000 every five minutes. I've never seen it like that. I recorded on my iPhone. It was insane. So I saw his power in that. And he kept me in so I became a character in his world for a moment in time as he was traveling.
  And I just saw the power of that, getting to know, talking to his fans on TinyChat, telling them when we're flying a helicopter over Madison Square Garden say, "Hey, if you're going, everybody wear purple to the concert. Tell me your cross streets. I'm going to do fly-bys." And then we get up there and we're doing fly-bys from fans who've tweeted, and this is 2012, where their location is. Or saying, "Hey, you're going to the movie this weekend, bring glow sticks. Oh, and tell the guy in the sound side of whatever theater you're at, turn it to a seven because they always turn it to a four." And theaters complained to us because all these kids were going to the projectionist demanding, "Turn it to a seven." And that was enormously powerful.
  And I think now it's matured in different ways. It's now just a part of the business. But Wicked is no different than that. Wicked, you have the Wizard of Oz fans, which is of a different generation. You have the Wicked book fans, which are of a different group, sort of, than the Wicked musical fans. And those are hardcore theater kid fans, which I'm a part of. And then you have movie people, and then you have musical people just in general, and then they're all giving you input of who you hire, how you're doing this movie. And so I tried to keep them in the loop of how we were doing. And then by now, it's, "OK, we're coming out. Let me present you to what we've done and hear these girls and what they've done." And that's been actually really fun and hard all at once, I guess.
  Manisha Krishnan: Well, I mean, I am curious about the viral moments from the Wicked press tour because obviously Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo's friendship has sparked a lot of conversation. They've been emotional in certain interviews together. This has even spawned parodies on TikTok. One thing I'm wondering is, what the hell did you do to them in this movie? No, I'm kidding. But is there something about this movie that really bonded you all? Where do you think that emotion's coming from? And what do you make of the fixation on that and the virality of those moments, that scrutiny?
  Jon Chu: Yeah. Imagine little me getting the call, "Hey, you get to do Wicked." "Oh my gosh, OK." And they announced me and everyone's like, "That guy who did Step Up to the Streets? Fuck you." That's the energy coming at you. My mom's like, "Don't listen to them, honey." I'm like, "I can't stop listening to them." So imagine that. Then you're like, "Hey, we're going to ..." I'm looking at the material, I'm like, "You can't do one movie. You have to do two movies because if you do one movie, you strip out all the things that's not Wicked anymore. And I'm a Wicked fan. I want this to be the definitive Wicked, otherwise it's not Wicked." So you split the movie in two and studio's like, "Jon, you announce it to the world." So then I tweeted like, "Fuck you, Jon. Two movies? You money grabber." So you're getting that kind of energy on you.
  And then everyone wants to be Elphaba and Galinda. Everyone's sending you their videos of why they should be Elphaba and Galinda. Everyone's sending you their favorite celebrities why they should be Elphaba and Galinda. And you're just trying to make a great movie and that takes focus and clarity. And then you start doing auditions and then you start choosing who it's going to be. And then you choose Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, which seems obvious now, but at the time everyone's like, "Cynthia Erivo? What? I mean, she could sing the song, but how could she be this?" "Oh, Ariana Grande, that's a money grab, the blah, blah, blah."
  I know the truth because I was there in the audition room. I saw how amazing that when you see Ariana Grande to do this role, you would be shocked because she's opening up a new chapter to her life. I knew that. And I'm seeing Cynthia Erivo doing things, even though she's known around the world, we were going to make her a global superstar because we were going to expose her to more people. And the way she sings Elphaba songs, even though we've heard it a hundred times, when she says, "Something has changed within me, something's not the same," that felt so resonant to me. This was during Covid lockdown when we were doing auditions, I was like, "That's where we are in culture right now." And so I had to choose that. And now everyone's attacking me, attacking me. And all the Wizard of Oz people are like, “You can't do Wicked. What are you going to do with Dorothy? Blah, blah, blah.”
  And then you're in London and you're together, and you're like, "People aren't going to see this movie for three, maybe plus years." So we have to make the best movie we can and all our careers on the line and knives are out and theater kids are tough and fans are tough. And by the way, everyone says cinema is dead. And by the way, they think movie musicals are dead. "Let's start." "Oh, and let's spend so much money on two movies that if the first one doesn't work, you're literally screwed." And then so we look at each other and we're like, "We only have each other. We only have each other. I think I have some solutions, but we're going to have to find this together." You become very, very bonded. They're my sisters. And if people think that's cringey, then they've never made something with love and they've never made ...
  You know. You know how hard late nights, all night long, drawing pictures, trying to figure it out, having that fear just outside your door and continuing through that, that is hard stuff. And when you have a group that you're like, "OK, block it all out. Let's walk this yellow brick road together," and you're creating, you're doing things and you're taking risks and you're playing, and I'm going to protect them because if I mess, I could kill their career too in the edit, in the mix. And so we're doing this with so much passion. And then people haven't even seen, and we do two movies at the same time. We shoot both. So we've seen the fun part of the story and the dark side of the story. We've seen them bond together, be together, and then we've seen their death and their rebirth as they leave each other.
  So we've lived a lifetime with these people before anyone even knows when this movie is coming out. And then we drop the movie and we're doing press tours. And we are so close together because we've been in this huddle. And they're only seeing the first movie, which is fun and it's heroic and it's all these things, but we lived their death already. So we're expressing those things. And it's hard, I think, for people to fully understand that, the intensity of that. But I think because you know how intense it is to create anything of substantial effort, that is what it requires.
  And we're living in a time of so much cynicism and everyone having a microphone to cut and blame. And so it's an interesting role as a director, as a storyteller. What does the audience want from me? Do they just want the project out there? Or are they begging and itching at all the behind the scenes stuff? And it's an interesting balance I'm still trying to find. Chris Nolan just does his movie and does his thing, and whether that can sustain itself, or James Cameron's getting out there and doing podcasts now too. Quentin Tarantino's getting on that microphone. So how much do we want to hear from the filmmaker or do I love the work speaking for itself? But there is a piece of me that also needs to speak about the work itself so people understand what's been going into this. And so I think that that's the dance that we're doing and-
  Manisha Krishnan: That was a good answer.
  Jon Chu: Sorry, that's a long thing. Sorry.
  Manisha Krishnan: That was better than what I thought you were going to tell me.
  Jon Chu: But that's what I struggle with every day. I am a person of the internet. I get information. I feed off of it. I love knowing that it's my meta universe over here. And now I have kids and I have my also real universe here. And so that separation when you have kids, at least that I'm finding, I have five kids now ... Yeah, yeah. It's the best though, it's the best. I have an eight-year-old, six-year-old, four-year-old, two-year-old, and one-year-old. And some say, "wow, that's so exhausting." But it actually spurs creativity. If you have kids, especially young kids, you know, it makes you alive. So I struggle with how much to engage. I want to engage with that world because I feel like it exists and you have to engage with it if you want to help guide it in some way and you want to be the defender of good and kindness.
  Manisha Krishnan: One thing I'm wondering about, because you grew up in Silicon Valley, so obviously like not scared of tech. There's a lot of sort of contention over using AI in the creative process. Guillermo del Toro said he would rather die before he uses it. To what extent do you think it could be useful for your filmmaking process?
  Jon Chu: Well, I mean, I think that AI is such a general term. It's hard to have arguments about AI because you're like, what are you talking about AI? Are you talking about generative AI? Are you talking about AI, the technology of ... Is auto correct a type of AI?
  Manisha Krishnan: Yeah, that's fair.
  Jon Chu: Is the algorithm AI? Yeah, I mean, to me, the marketing term of AI is just so confusing when I have a conversation about it. If we're talking about AI as a technology of information and organization and even visual organization or understanding, to me, that's so fascinating. And I love that. And Wicked was sort of pre AI because we were already way down the road, but I like to play with AI because I want to understand it. I'm not scared of technology, like you said. I think humans choose what we value and we're going to choose the thing that is not the easiest thing ultimately. It may be great to see at first. When DSLRs came out and you're like, "Wow, that looks like a real camera." And suddenly everyone's a photographer. And then you see all these pictures and they all look the same and you're like, "Oh, what it looks like isn't actually what a real photographer is. What does it mean? What are you trying to say?" And so our values shift.
  So when it comes to generative AI, I think there was an original sin that it's hard for people to get over, this mining of images and stories that we never agreed on and the rights holders never stepped that legal game up to defend it. And so it feels like everyone's like, "Hey, we're past that point, guys. We're sorry about that. We know you had those terms that everybody clicked on and we mined those and sorry, but this technology's more important than that. " So I think that as an artist, that's a hard thing to get over. But I think ... I can't say we have to get over it, but I will say that things are moving forward. So I think that's one part of an argument.
  Then the other part of the argument is this, that generative AI can be helpful too, can be a tool in the same way that a pencil, anything from our head to become physicalized, that process as we know technology, anything that can bridge that process is beautiful. So I think we're trying to figure out how to work this pencil, how to ride this beast a little bit, and we're in that zone. I don't know. I find it fascinating. I think that the audience, however, when it's human made, we built these sets, we have improv moments... I know what it's like, I know you know what it's like when you're in a committee coming up with the plan, you're writing the script, even doing the storyboards and you're making the thing, if it turns out like that, it's not good enough.
  The movie comes alive when we've done all that work and then we get on that set and you have 100 people and it's suddenly raining and you're like, "All right, we got to make this work. How does this work?" And then you're using your human instincts to say, "OK, it is raining and she's getting wet and she's crying. And so the camera has to be closer because we don't have big enough umbrellas. So we're going to get closer to her." And suddenly it feels like you're there and it's unexplainable. And if I wrote that down in the script, everyone would say, "You can't do it, you can't afford it. And it's crazy." But it's happening now and then it becomes iconic.
  And I've had that plenty of times in making a movie, even when Elphaba is getting her cape on in movie one and she winks. If I wrote that in the script, people would have laughed at it. She would have said, "Hell no, I'm not winking." But she did that in the moment and now it becomes an image that lasts forever. And I think that's what makes cinema beautiful. I think that that's what makes art beautiful. And I think we value that.
  Manisha Krishnan: OK. So it sounds like you're potentially open. You're not closing the door on working with AI basically?
  Jon Chu: I don't know.
  Manisha Krishnan: OK. That's fair. I do want to talk a little bit about Crazy Rich Asians because I love that movie, but also I sort of wonder, did you have concerns about being typecast for doing Asian projects? That movie meant so much for representation. Did you also feel a lot of responsibility when you undertook that project?
  Jon Chu: Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why I did it because I was so scared of talking about being an Asian American. Because one, as soon as you sort of label yourself, "Oh, you're the Asian American director," and I feel like, "Oh, they're just going to just, 'Send him all the Asian scripts.'" And I was scared of that. I just wanted to be seen as a director and also I don't have all the answers about my cultural identity crisis.
  And so at that moment, in whatever year it was, I was doing Now You See Me 2. I'd had a decade of making movies and I was working with these big actors, Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, Mark Ruffalo, Woody Harrelson. And I realized I was like, "Oh, I can hang with these people. Oh, I think I deserve to be here now after a decade of doing it." And then I looked around and I was like, "Oh, anyone can make this movie." And I had to go back to my student self of like, "Well, what do I want to say with this thing that I now know how to utilize?"
  And it was about my cultural identity crisis, something that being in the Chef Chu's, at the restaurant, I thought about a lot. My parents, when I would see people come in and they treat servers however you want to treat them, but they would treat my parents poorly, sometimes, not all the customers, but just sometimes I'd see it. And I get really angry at my dad like, "Kick them out, dude. What are you doing?" And my parents sat me down and they said, "Listen, we are ambassadors here. We are the first Chinese family maybe this family has ever seen. And so they think we're a certain way and they treat us a certain way. But one, we're taking their money ..."
  Manisha Krishnan: That's so Asian. As a fellow Asian, I can say that.
  Jon Chu: "And two, we're not just filling their bellies, we're filling their hearts. So that next time they go see another Asian family, maybe they'll double think what that initial instinct is." And he's like, "That's what you represent when you go out into that world." So I think that has carried with me. And Crazy Rich Asians, even though it's a romantic comedy, it's an Asian American woman going to Asia for the first time. And for me, I was like, "I know what that feels like," going to Taiwan for the first time to Hong Kong for the first time and feeling like, "Oh, this feels different than where I was from. But is this what going to a homeland feels like?" And then they call you gweilo, which is like “foreign devil” essentially. And you're like, "Oh, I'm not a part of this either." So if I'm not a part of this and I'm not a part of that, I know that's like a tired argument, but it's true, in the identity that I don't know where I fit.
  So this movie helped me find how I fit and to find Asian actors from all around the world, not just Asian American, that were funny, that were beautiful, that were elegant, that were dramatic, that were messy, that were raw and rude, all the things. And for us to make fun of our own families in our own way and make it aspirational, that the studios had to spend 100 million ... Or it wasn't $100 million, but tens of millions of dollars to say, "Go see this movie, go pay money and sit in the dark and just listen to them because they're beautiful and aspirational and funny," the way they treat any movie star. To me, that was very empowering. But I thought no one would go see the movie. But I was like, "That's what we have to do." And when we did it and then people showed up and it wasn't just Asian people, it was people bringing their cousin and their grandparents and their neighbor, to me, I saw the power of cinema. That to me was like, "Oh, this is a very sacred space we need to protect."
  Manisha Krishnan: You just signed a three-year deal with Paramount Skydance. Their CEO, David Ellison, has sort of committed to doing away with DEI initiatives, and that's been a trend in Hollywood that we've seen over the year. Does that worry you at all in terms of the type of films that you'll be able to make? And where do you think we're at with representation in light of this DEI crackdown?
  Jon Chu: Yeah, I mean, of course. I feel like my job as a storyteller is to get in there and make things facts. And maybe that's not my job to go debate the thing and go tweet the thing. I'm on the ground and I have to get a project made and I have to get it into theater so people can pay money, sit in the dark and see the world through a new person's perspective. I have to be so laser focused on that. I can read all this stuff, I can feel all the things, but I have to be really laser—because that's where I'm most effective.
  So if I'm making Wicked, I'm going to cast Cynthia Erivo, a woman of color playing Elphaba, for the first time playing a green girl, which is crazy. And when she says those words, it means things different and she's bringing her own wounds to it. I'm going to prove that. I don't have to debate anybody about that. I'm going to put Michelle Yeoh as Madame Morrible. I don't have to prove that. I'm going to put the first wheelchair user as Nessarose, the first one. I'm not going to debate that, tweet it. I'm just going to do it.
  I'm going to put a whole cast of Latino, amazing actors, singers, dancers in the streets of Washington Heights. And I'm going to show that that bodega, just like my Chinese restaurant, has bigger dreams and is as wonderful and beautiful and delightful as any Hollywood classic musical has ever shown. They can walk on the walls when you're dreaming in your apartment. That's to me, we're just going to do it. And in Crazy Rich Asians, we're going to show that it's not about a list of like checking off people of what you have to have on a list. Those arguments are for other people, but my job is to just do it and say, "Hey, look how much money you guys made. Should you make more of these?" Great, let's do that.
  I think I can get caught up in those arguments all day long. I know David, this is our hometown. We went to film school together. My job is to just show and prove. And the thing about the box office, which I love about movie theaters, is that reviewers can say whatever they want, people in a conference room can say whatever they want, business affairs can say whatever the fuck they want. But when you put it in a movie theater, if it makes money, if it creates a cultural phenomenon, it becomes a fact, then there's nothing you can say about it. There's no more argument. And I just think that that's my role. And wherever that is, whatever resource I get to make things facts that I know are true, let's go.
  Manisha Krishnan: That is the perfect way to end this conversation. Jon, thank you so much. You killed it.
  Zoë Schiffer: That's our show for today. Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley, which features a live conversation with Lisa Su, the CEO of the famed chipmaker AMD. Adriana Tapia and Mark Leyda produced this episode. Amar Lal at Macro sound-mixed this episode. Kate Osborn is our executive producer, and Katie Drummond is WIRED’s global editorial director.